Hi Latif fans,
Quick post here in response to Faisal's comments about the BNP. I have recently been doing some research on BNP supporters (Someone has to do it!) What we found is reflected in the title of our paper: "Angry White Men". Your typical BNP supporter is a middle aged, working class man living in the North of England, who left school at sixteen, and hates all of the existing parties. He probably used to vote Labour (if he voted at all), but feels betrayed by them because he has seen no benefits in his area from Labour government and particularly because he believes they lost control of immigration. He is very likely to live in a constituency where Labour have been in charge for decades and where there is a large Muslim population nearby.
John Gray is right that these angry white Northerners feel bewildered pace of social and economic change in Britain, and disenchanted with a society that no longer has a place for them. But this line of argument can be taken too far. The BNP are not a product of "globalisation", and their supporters are not as sophisticated as John Gray. In fact, there is little evidence that economic factors - like unemployment, welfare dependence or local deprivation - have any connection to BNP support.
The BNP do well in deprived areas, its true, but they are also absent from plenty of others. The story is culture. The BNP harness resentments and prejudices, and to do that they need someone to blame - and the scapegoat du jour is, alas, Muslims. There is a strong and consistent link between BNP support and the size of the local Muslim population. One of my colleagues (Roger Eatwell) has called this the "cumulative extremism" dynamic - the perception of extremism among Muslims leads Islamophobic white working class voters to mobilise defensively against them. The presence of the BNP and racist attacks, in turn, can polarise the Muslim community and encourage more hotheaded elements to retaliate, which in turn boosts the BNP further...We see this dynamic also in the sudden appearance of the England Defence League, which is essentially a bunch of football hooligans angry about Muslim extremist demonstrators at the funeral processions of soldiers in Luton.
The BNP are therefore a symptom of something cultural, not something economic. Namely, the widespread, and deeply wrong, belief that British Muslims do not adhere to British values and represent a threat to the rest of the population. Anyone who knows Faisal can see this argument has no basis, but it is now touted about regularly in tabloids, and bad Channel 4 documentaries about "terorrists in our midst" and so forth. It is becoming the conventional wisdom, and this is greatly helping the BNP. This argument urgently needs addressing. I don't think Britain is on the road to Kristelnacht, but our political leaders need to speak out in favour of Muslims as valued, moderate and thoroughly British citizens, as the overwhelming majority indeed are.
13 comments:
The conclusion of your research reminded me of this map showing the correlation between areas of high bnp membership and areas high non-white populations which seems to not show an obvious correlation
http://www.flickr.com/photos/25541021@N00/4038713677/sizes/o/
to what would you attribute the seeming discrepancy here?
This map is of membership of the BNP, not of BNP voters. Its based on the membership list which leaked on the internet last year. We've done some analysis of the BNP's members also, and there are some interesting differences between those who become footsoldiers for the party and those who merely vote for it.
While, as we've noted, BNP voters concentrate in poorer areas where Muslim populations are large, BNP members are found in more homogenously white areas.
We suspect voting and membership have different motivational structures. Voters are instrumental; they only worry about the "threat" or "competition" posed by Muslims (and become receptive to BNP arguments about it) when they see, or read about, Muslims in their local area on a regular basis. Members are more committed to the prejudiced ideology of the BNP, and tend to regard Muslims as a problem regardless of their local circumstances.
Another factor is historical traditions - BNP members tend to concentrate in areas where the party and its predecessor the National Front have had a long tradition. It seems to draw upon long established networks of far right extremists. Many of these networks are in quite white areas.
The third factor is methodological - this map shows BNP membership as a share of the overall population. But until a couple of weeks ago only white people could become BNP members, and even now only white people really want to. So the correct measure is BNP membership as a % of the white population. Correcting the results like this produces a larger overlap.
Rigorous analysis Rob!
Found your post very interesting indeed - particularly relating to the fact that your research has shown BNP voting patterns are not linked to economic conditions.
However, it also saddens me that the reason you put forward is due to culture and an inherent prejudice towards Muslims.
Sadly, Islam is not a progressive religion in the main, and regardless of which countries Muslim immigrants originate from, the religion does not sit particularly well with Western culture, particularly the 'hedonistic', libertarian approach to life.
That said, I am of course in total agreement that the vast majority of British Muslims are peaceful people who simply want to get on with their lives. Most of us are reasonably tolerant and patriotic, contrary to what some polls have shown.
Despite being British born, I am forever grateful that my father chose to study his postgraduate medical diploma in London, and then decided to stay in the 1960s.
On the whole, I genuinely believe that there are very few countries in the West, if at all, that have been so welcoming to Muslim immigrants.
Proud to be British. Just like the BNP...
hi rob, thanks for taking the time to explain.
The reasons why people support the BNP are:-
Poverty
Bigotry and
Stupidity
The task of those pulling the strings is made easier by behaviour of certain elements of the Muslim population.
In many parts of the UK there was objection to the war in iraq but I felt there was a widespread feeling of brother muslims uniting against a common western enemy. Ironic in many respects that Saddam with his wars against iran and genocide of the kurds is the man responsible for the death of more fellow muslims than anyone ever.
There is a responsibility on the peaceful british patriotic muslim community to be more vociferous in its condemnation of these radicals. It need to take leadership in the battle to close down some of the more radical mosques and root out the extremests. The muslim community has been eeriely possibly shamefully silent in this regard.
The BNP are racists but do not underestimate them. National Socialism attracts followers by allowing the disenfranchised to believe their problems are all down to immigrants- takin our jobs benefits etc. In times of economic hardship with a generation of young white men living a ferral existance with the absence of a positive male role model this is a real threat
Hello Biscuitman,
Thanks for your comments. Poverty, stupidity (or at least, lack of education) and bigotry certainly do all make contributions to BNP support. But I think my feeling is that it is unfounded fears about Muslims among the uneducated, many of which have their roots in older racial prejudices, that are the central problem.
I agree that Muslims in Britain should do more to root out extremists in their community, though I do not know enough about how, for example, Mosques govern themselves to know what the right route to achieving this would be (for example, can Mosque worshippers vote to dismiss a preacher whose views they disagree with? Or is this decision taken by a smaller elite group in the Mosque?)
However, I think as much blame, if not more, lies with politicians and the media. There has been too little effort by mainstream politicians to make the positive case for Islam and Muslims' contribution to British society, and too much accomodation of extremists (Ken Livingstone being particularly egregious in this regard).
Meanwhile, the media isn't interested at all in the 99.9% of Muslims who condemn extremism, and peddle endless stories about the 0.01% who find terrorism attractive. I can't tell you how many times I've shouted at Channel 4 News - which considers itself liberal - for its sheer ignorance.
I think the BNP are a symptom of a much deeper problem in Britain - indeed in much of Europe - which is that a mature conversation about how best to integrate immigrant communities and the majority population has not taken place. In most countries (Britain included) politicans have avoided this conversation at all costs, and so anxieties, resentments and prejudices fester around this issue until they find a more radical outlet. Hopefully the BNP's emergence will force mainstream party politicans to make stronger, braver statements in defence of diversity and immigration. But given the behaviour of the Labour party over the last couple of years, I'm afraid I'm not optimistic.
Biscuitman, Rob - all interesting comments. Read a really interesting article in the New Statesman recently, written by Mehdi Hassan, who I really rate.
Check it out: http://www.newstatesman.com/society/2009/11/mehdi-hasan-debate-racism
Hope you find it interesting.
Biscuitman - please keep reading! Your opinion is very much valued.
F.
Rob sorry cannot agree, Mature conversations about integration are middle class niceties which will never solve the problem things have gone too far. The problems for the white community are ones of poverty and breakdown of the family unit. With policies that promote family units, work ethic father marriage and punish single parentage, moral bankrupcy and crime there is a way forward.
The issue is more complex for many of the non-white community. They have typically retained many of the benefits of family values work ethic etc etc. For them can they ever integrate into a society that they regard as morally bankrupt and regard with a mixture of fear and loathing.
Middle class integration is broadly complete achieved through primarily higher education mixing. It must theerfore be a question of wealth and socio economics
p
spot on biscuitman couldnt agree meore
Biscuitman,
I sympathise with your position - which is essentially that of the more socially conservative wing of the Tory party - but I suspect it is not a practical solution.
Telling the sections of the white working class that have been affected by poverty, family breakdown, persistent worklessness that (in effect) it is all their fault for being feckless parents who don't work hard enough seem to me like a message that will simply encourage BNP voting, not reduce it. Even if it has a large grain of truth in it, it is not a message such people are likely to hear, or respond to.
Please dont presume to judge my politics or political allegience if I have any.
Firstly I am identifying the problem in whites which is essentailly poverty/envy/bigotry intertwined. Then I suggest that until some of the deeper seated social problems are addressed there will continue to be growing support for the BNP.
You make no other constructive suggestions yourself other than promote moderate islam's contribution to the UK in a may moderate islam is incabale or unwilling to do itself.
I should have thought that the way Griffin was treated on QT reflects how most people including the media regard Griffin;-a man of little consequence in their world representing views.
The point is he appeals to people who dont watch QT who dont behave by all that is respectable and who are frankly easily led morons. This doesnt mean there isnt a problem its a problem that doesnt have a nice fluffy socialist lets feel good about our liberalismn solution. We need to fix the hole in the bottom of the boat- not paint the decks
Biscuitman, I think we're pretty much on the same page here, but I seem to be winding you up. I'm going to respond more carefully to avoid misunderstanding:
"Please dont presume to judge my politics or political allegience if I have any."
I didn't - I was merely pointing out that your views on family breakdown etc as a source of white poverty are shared by a significant chunk of the Conservative party, notably Ian Duncan Smith.
"Firstly I am identifying the problem in whites which is essentailly poverty/envy/bigotry intertwined. Then I suggest that until some of the deeper seated social problems are addressed there will continue to be growing support for the BNP."
I agree - up to a point. My academic research on the party support the idea that bigotry and poverty are at the core of BNP support. However, the latter is in decline thanks to rising education and generational attitude change. Also, the BNP feed off the current negative attention devoted to immigration and Islam. It is not clear to me that a continuing rise in support for the party is inevitable if attention turns elsewhere.
"You make no other constructive suggestions yourself other than promote moderate islam's contribution to the UK in a may moderate islam is incabale or unwilling to do itself."
Erm, no. To start with, the paper I was summarizing here wasn't about proposing solutions - it was about empirically analyzing the problem. While you seem quite comfortable going with your intuitions on these issues, I prefer to confront them with data.
I have not focussed on the issue of moderate vs less moderate islam, which is not something I know a lot about, but rather the neglect of issues that white working class voters care about at local and national level. These voters do feel abandoned, and perhaps with good reason: they have not seen much evidence of substantive response to their concerns from the main political parties. Why this has happened is another debate, but I think my highlighting this issue amounts to a constructive suggestion.
"The point is he appeals to people who dont watch QT who dont behave by all that is respectable and who are frankly easily led morons."
The first point is perfectly true, the second point strikes me as rather close to the kind of ignorant stereotyping that the BNP themselves engage in. Are you really calling nearly 1 million British voters morons who do not behave at all respectably? And how exactly does putting out insults such as this help resolve the problem of BNP voting?
"This doesnt mean there isnt a problem its a problem that doesnt have a nice fluffy socialist lets feel good about our liberalismn solution. We need to fix the hole in the bottom of the boat- not paint the decks."
I agree - but I don't understand exactly what fixing the hole in the bottom of the boat might mean in concrete policy terms. If you're in favour of more stridently authoritarian approaches to the anti-social behaviour of the white poor which you seem to find very objectionable, I would point out that this is an approach Labour have been pushing very hard in recent years (ASBOs, fines for parents whose children skip school, higher alcohol taxes, penalties for underaged drinkers etc etc) without much success.
Thank you for your careful answer. For the record sadly yes i think there are at least 1 million morons in the uk. Go out at 11.30 on a friday night in any town in the uk to witness moronic behaviour
Voting has no minimum standards but hey that's democracy for you.
I suspect we are partially in agreement and lets leave it at that. Clearly there is no easy answer and the current government doesnt do difficult answers.
Ps i am not wound up, the frissance of debate is to consider views other than ones own.
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